Long time no see. Sorry this second post took so long, I got hit pretty hard by work as well as a bad case of the fuckits, but I'm back with another overly opinionated post for your reading pleasure.
As the good Dr already mentioned this little rant is about one of the more controversial topics in comic book fandom, the so called Women in Refrigerators Syndrome.
Coined by Author Gail Simone on her site of the same name the syndrome refers to the negative treatment of female characters in super hero comic books ranging from abuse to rape to murder; and is named after what its sadly still one of the defining moments of Kyle Rayner the fifth Green Lantern ; the gruesome murder of his girlfriend Alex by government psycho for hire Major Force.
Naturally once the site gained notoriety among fans and authors the treatment of women in comics became a hot button issue. How were comics supposed to grow their reader base if female readers saw female characters treated in such a way.
Of course its not like it really changed much, the original letter by Simone that lead to the site is now over a decade old and thus predates the horror that is Identity Crisis.
There are, however, two major problems with the idea of the Women in Refrigerators Syndrome that make it somewhat weaker as a rallying cry to change the industry.
The first is the double standard intrinsic in its very nature. Yes, terrible things happen to female characters in comic books and its often done for shock value. But it happens just as frequently to males, if not more frequently
considering the higher percentage of male characters.Take for example Jason Todd, the second Robin and one of the most famous deaths in comics. Lured to a foreign country by the mother that abandoned him, beaten to near to death by a cackling Joker and then exploded the rest of the way all to get at Batman.
Another example is Terry Berg, another character from Kyle Rayner's time as the only Green Lantern. Terry was Kyles assistant, he was also gay. One night some homophobes found Terry coming out of a club and beat him so brutally that it drove Kyle to leave the planet in disgust at humanity.
Or perhaps we should look at Kyle himself, since this all started with him. In the past few years alone Kyle has been relegated to a supporting role (one of the things that can land someone on Simone's list) in favor of Hal ¨Captain Cardboard¨ Jordan, possessed by the same entity that (retroactively) possessed Jordan to make Hal look better by comparison, and then killed. He got better from the last part, but so do most comic book deaths so it still counts.
But, some may say, these events are terrible to be sure, but at least the male characters don't have to deal with the worst bit of thing to come out of modern comics; rape as character development. And to that I say, WROOONG!
Just look at the Bat Family once again. In the past few years both Dick Grayson, the first Robin/Nightwing/now Batman, and Bruce ¨The God Damn Batman¨ Wayne himself were drugged and raped by female villains and Bruces rape even produced a child (they retconned that during the night Bruce spent with Talia Al´Ghul she drugged him before the hit the sack together).
Terrible things happen to comic book characters, male or female, but there is no out cry when it happens to the men. Oh sure fans of the character may bitch or call ¨shitty retcon¨ but there is no website for it, no one is accused of sexism for it. Hell, Judd Winick, the creator of Terry Berg, won awards for having a gay guy beaten to a pulp in his comic! Yeah it was from GLAAD for his treatment of the subject... but the point still stands.
Alright this post is getting long enough as it is, so I think it´s time to end it. I´ll be back to confront the second major problem with Women in Refrigerators next week, Same Dork Time, Same Dork Channel.
"Terrible things happen to comic book characters, male or female, but there is no out cry when it happens to the men. Oh sure fans of the character may bitch or call ¨shitty retcon¨ but there is no website for it, no one is accused of sexism for it."
ReplyDeleteEd:
This point has been made many, many times over the years, ever since "women in comics" has become a hot button issue. I'm afraid that, despite your efforts, it isn't going to change anything or make anyone rethink their position.
The female fans who cry sexism every time something happens to a female character they don't like, really couldn't care less about fairness, equality, balance or anything else that would make their venomous vitriol be seen as wrong or inappropriate. They honestly don't care about anything, save their own personal and political agendas.
In short, nice try but it is really just a waste of time. Those who know what you stated already don't act that way, while those that do have long since turned a deaf ear to such logic and rationale. It's sad it has to be that way, but there it is.
I don't think the argument is that bad things don't happen. I think the point is rhar bad things happen more often to women then men.
ReplyDeleteAndre:
ReplyDeleteYes, and that talking point has been proven catagorically false. More murders, assaults, depowering, put in situations of distress, and handicapping is done way more to male characters in superhero comics, than female ones, if for no other reason, than there are way more of them. The only one female characters might have more of is rape, but not only have there have been male characters raped, as well, but that is again due to the larger amount of male characters as the heroic protagonist.
So, as the facts show, no, female characters in superhero comics do NOT get a disproportionate amount of harm done to them over their male counterparts. Yet, despite that evidence, the claim is still made regardless of the facts. All which proves that many who rail on about this, don't care about the truth or fairness, just simply control and power. Politics over morality. Personal desires over freedom. It's nothing new. It's just wrapped up in the "cloak of self-righteous crusaderism." That's why points like Ed's here, have no impact on things and probably never will.
You cant point out that three guys have been depowered, murdered out of a 50 and then point out that one 2 girls out of 3 have suffered a simaler fate.
ReplyDeleteDo a dispropportionate percentage of women in comics suffer murder, assault, depowering?
"Proven catagorically false, facts show, despite the evidence, regardless of the facts"
But you don't list any facts for me to check.
You cant just say it is a fact and make me take your word for it... prove it first then talk. Tell then it is just speculation.
here is a kicker for you however. The people who say WiR is true have not proven it any more then you have. The much talked about list is at best proof of concept only.
Andre:
ReplyDeleteYou're right. I didn't provide any facts for checking. But then, I didn't know I was required to, when simply stating why Ed's efforts were doomed to failure.
But I'm nothing, if not accomodating. Here's a few entries from a blog I've often seen as a great source for debunking the myths of "female suffering in superhero comics" (especially, in comparison to male suffering within the same):
http://scottthemadthinker.vox.com/library/post/wir-meet-mtir-men-turned-into-rugs.html
http://scottthemadthinker.vox.com/library/post/dudes-in-distress.html
http://scottthemadthinker.vox.com/library/post/barbara-gordon-is-not-in-a-refrigerator.html
This person used to have another blog, where they listed a good bit of males who've suffered the kinds of traumas female readers dislike seeing done to female characters, which was appropirately titled "Boys Beaten with Crowbars", but that blog was erased. But maybe if you asked them after reading those pieces listed, they would email the list or even repost it.
I agree that many people often talk about things as "truths" without any facts to back it up. I do try, though, to read things that give me information on the topic. I hope those links show you that I'm not just "talking out of my hat." :)
I'm not really qualified to wade into this debate - I can't quote facts and figures from either side of the fence - but I think a fundimental issue of the WIR list may be getting overlooked by your post:
ReplyDeleteThe big issue isn't so much that bad things happen disproportionally to female characters (though that's unquestionably part of it), it's that when bad stuff like this happens, it's usually to further develop a MALE character. Alex was murdered for no other reason than to give Kyle angst. Likewise with the rape of Sue Dibney: The story was all about the actions of the male characters around her rather than Sue herself. she was reduced to a mere plot device.
Now, I suppose you could argue that your example of Jason Todd is the same in a way - an act purely designed to provoke a reation in Batman - but reading the story again shows this, IMO, not to be the case. It's Robin's story, NOT Batman's. Muddying the waters even more is the fact that Jason's final fate was actually decided by a readers poll!
As for rape as a character development tool (a trope any writer should think VERY carefully about before using on a character, male OR female) are you seriously telling me you think, proportionally speaking, an equal number of male characters have suffered this? Seriously, I bet it's quicker to list the number of female characters this HASN't been used on.
Like I say, I'm not in a position to provide data, or to throw numbers around in a way that could properly back up what I'm saying here, so I guess it has to remain just my opinion, but seriously, re-read the WIR site, or look at some of the more eloquent comments on message boards about this topic and I think you'll find the slant I provide above is pretty close.
"The big issue isn't so much that bad things happen disproportionally to female characters (though that's unquestionably part of it), it's that when bad stuff like this happens, it's usually to further develop a MALE character."
ReplyDeleteWell, the disproportionality aspect HAS been challenged and debunked (you need just look at the links I provided for that).
As for the bad things happening to female characters to provide plot motovation for the male characters, yes, that's true, it has been used that way many times, but then, that isn't due to some deep hidden hatred of women by male creators and fans. It has to do with most of the main protagonists in superhero comics being male. Im mean the two examples you cited for females used that way were supporting characters, but the male used is (by most folks accounts) a main protagonist himself. A better example is, how many times was Jimmy Olsen put into danger by a villain, to motovate Superman's reactions? How many times did Wonder Woman have to save Steve Trevor from dangers, which made him look weak and helpless. Suddenly, you have a whole different kettle of fish.
The two basic flaws in the whole WiR theory, is that it fails to account for the disproportionately large amount of male leads in comic series compared to females, and the fact that supporting characters of both sexes are often used as plot points to motovate the protagonist. The answer isn't for male writers to treat female characters differently. The answer is for more females to take up roles as leading protagonists in series and for more females to write superhero fiction (to give a women's slant on this age old writing cliches). These are the true issues that should be getting addressed, not for male creators to stop "harming" female characters. Because I'm sure if both those things were completely EVEN with their male counterparts, we'd see plenty of female leads having their male supporting characters in danger, or damaged, as much by female writers, as the whole WiR theory says male writers do to with male leads and their supporting females.
Superhero comics are very much action oriented fare. With that action comes danger. If you are a superhero lead, we will be seeing the wrold from your view. If you are a supporting character closely connected to that lead, you are a target for dangerous stuff (almost as much as the heroic lead, and usually BECAUSE of them). This is the nature of the superhero tale beast. You need conflict and danger to provoke excitement and drama. And that's what SUPPORTING charcaters are there to provide. Females SEEM to suffer more from this, but not for the reasons many want to claim (i.e. male creators are sexist and misogynistic). Once there is more of a balance of female leads and female creators, you'd most likely see male supporting characters "suffering" just as greatly.
"http://scottthemadthinker.vox.com/library/post/wir-meet-mtir-men-turned-into-rugs.html"
ReplyDeleteThis is not proof. This just shows that it sometimes happens to men, the charge is that it happens to women disproportionately more then men. Do you have any proof to refute this charge?
David
The WiR list seams to not support your reading of it. In fact to get on the list you really only need to have something bad happen to you or a loved one. (odd seeing as how many of the men who's plot is being advanced would be on the list themselves if the plumping was changed)
"As for rape as a character development tool (a trope any writer should think VERY carefully about before using on a character, male OR female) are you seriously telling me you think, proportionally speaking, an equal number of male characters have suffered this? Seriously, I bet it's quicker to list the number of female characters this HASN't been used on."
I will take your bet. Pick any 5 girls from marvel or DC and I can pick any 5 men. Then we will count the number of sexual assaults inflicted on them.
"This is not proof. This just shows that it sometimes happens to men, the charge is that it happens to women disproportionately more then men. Do you have any proof to refute this charge?"
ReplyDeleteI must beg to differ with you, that this is not proof, Andre. In the piece in question, the person was responding to the charge that women are majorly the ones who suffer degrading and horrific deaths to advance a story plot (especially a male's), while one would find it "hard to even compare" showing that it happens to male characters.
It is at the very essence of much of this debate. And the fact the person I linked was so easily able to find multiple instances of such, while the person making said claim focuses solely on one supporting female character, I think speaks very much to how the belief that women suffer disportionately more in superhero comics over men is simply not true.
Also, you never said anything about the other links I provided. Did you read them, too, or just the one you've tried to take issue with?
As for a more complete list, as I said in my last response, this person who's blog I gave you links to, did do such a list on another blog they had, but that posting was lost, when Yahoo! cancelled all Yahoo! 360 blogs and erased them. This person may still have the information available, though, so that is why I suggested you email them and ask them for it, or ask if they would repost it on this blog. And I again will suggest that to you.
In any event, I feel the posts that were linked do plenty of debunking of the myths about how much female characters suffer, when compared to their male counterparts, in superhero fiction. But, despite such efforts, this myth continues to persist, which is why I informed Ed why his post here is likely to fall on deaf ears, as such things have already been said (and proven) many times before. At this point, people who still believe that myth are doing so, simply because it's what they want to believe and no amount of evidence or logic will ever change their minds. It's really why I've stopped talking about this at length (minus the posts here) myself.
"I beg to differ"
ReplyDeleteThen we must disagree.
Scott the mad thinker's blog is one I really like and wish he would update more but my charge (not the counter charge you posted) is still not proven wrong and I think you know that.
The only way to really refute the clame that girls are disproportionately more often the abused is to grab a random good sized sample and start counting. Tell then the people saying the refrigerator is a proplem don't really know. The people saying it is not a problem don't really know as well.
I am not saying any of this in support of WiR as I find the concept as it is now to be both sexist to women (Can't hurt a girl they can't handle it and it is wrong) and sexist to men (Big bad men just hate women and don't think they are people).
As a storyteller I will happally stuff wifes, girlfriends, boyfriends, kids and small fuzzy woodland critters in the fridge if it makes for a good story.
However if WiR is going to stop pretending to be feminist theory then proving it wrong should be done properly.
Wow, people read this? I thought I was just talking to myself here.
ReplyDeleteIm really glad people are talking about this, and I´ll finish up with my main issue in the next post, but I need to make one thing perfectly clear.
Im not trying to make some big change in the comic book fandom. This is all for fun. Just that fact that I got a handful of geeks to talk about things is results enough for me.
Thanks for indulging my ego a bit folks!
"Wow, people read this? I thought I was just talking to myself here."
ReplyDeleteWell, if you were talking about something "light" you probably would be. But talking about WiR and the flaws within it, will get the comic feminism "watchdogs" sniffing around and linking you all over the place (usually for ridicule purposes). Trust me, I know of what I speak.
As for me, I found it when doing a search for Kyle Rayner references. Most likely, due to the linking by feminists, your post came up on my search. So, you should probably thank them for all the traffic that has raised your visability, even though that has nothing to do with why they linked you.
Finally, I can respect your saying you aren't out to change anyone's opinions in this (and believe me, that's the wisest course to take). But you did this "for fun?" You know, fun posts are usually pretty light and fluffy affairs. Pointing out the flaws in WiR and, indirectly by proxy, some theories in comic feminism as a whole, doesn't seem to be either of those things. I guess it takes all kind, but I don't know if I'd call this a "fun topic." Interesting, maybe. Contentious, definitely! But "fun" is certainly not an adjective I'd use for it. Ah well, C'est la Vie! I look forward to your conclusion to the topic, at any rate. :)
"I am not trying to make some big change in the comic book fandom. This is all for fun"
ReplyDeleteThats what the person who wrote WIR says as well. Still the topic is about women being victoms so you best be ready for heavy thinking.
First let me apologize for not reading all the prior comments first, but not only is think black on blue rough... there is just such a long arguement-looking series of them. I skimmed and just wanted to say I'm with The Ed on this.
ReplyDeleteAny generalized (generic) outcries are pointless... because they miss the point. These characters are people, individuals... not "men" or "women" or anyting inbetween and any circumstances they are written into should be looked at and appriciated (or reviled) in terms of *each individual character* and their story. I don't give a rat's behind whether someone's plumbing is on the inside, outside or in some state of rennovation... I look at them in terms of the story being told. Is there excessive violence from a particular writer? artist? character/hero/villan? Before spouting a sweeping complaint, I would think it wise to take context and source into serious account. More importantly, I would try to remember the psychological phenomena that causes someone looking for something to more often find it. Oh, and while "life immitates art"... so too does art imitate life.
(sorry, I just babbled a cubic buttload... hopefully all the interruptions while typing don't show too bady)